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News Feed Forums #0. About the Community 01. Very Private Together talk – May 31st 2024

  • 01. Very Private Together talk – May 31st 2024

    Posted by GregBot on June 1, 2024 at 8:21 pm

    Anna Stump – Esra Nesipoğulları – Greg Bot – Mo Li – Taaye

    Script from the conversation that happened on May 31st 2024
    (Sound recording at the end of this post)

    Greg: So Anna, you used Feminism in your art, I think Esra, you went around it in your art. Esra, in your practice, in your art practice, you went around it, you pushed it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Taaye, feminism. Pushed feminism? In your art.

    Taaye: I don’t think that’s what I pushed, but then I’ve been told that my work is very feminine. You can tell that it’s created by a female. Someone told me that you can tell that it’s created by Asian women. Very, very specific, yeah.

    Anna: I have always liked to use feminism because I’ve considered myself a feminist since very early. My late teens, early 20s, you know, going to college. And so my work has always had feminist overtones. Some of it, some of it is not at all. You know, some of it is, so I can turn it on, I can turn it off. But I have fun with it. I really do. And I started a group of women. I’m not the leader of it anymore, but I think it’s helped a lot of women. And they’re mostly my age, so they’re older. But it’s just provided this really rich vein of exploration through my whole career. So it’s been good to me. Feminism has been good to me. Whether we’ve made any breakthroughs, I doubt. You know, what’s really interesting happening in Mexico this weekend, you know, a woman president being elected. And, yeah, because both of the main candidates are women in this macho country. And they’re getting there before the United States. It’s like a slap, you know. So I’m really interested to see what happens with that. You know, it’s very interesting because, like, to North American, I mean, I’m saying American. I’m saying America, but I’m thinking also a female president or, you know, it’s such a foreign conversations. I remember when I was living in the States, and that was a time when Hillary was, you know, potentially could be a president. She was a presidential candidate. And I remember one of the conversation was that, like, are we ready for a female president? And I’m like, what age and what year are you living in? Like 1860s? It’s such a foreign conversation to a lot of Americans. And I was surprised that we still need to talk about whether we are ready for a female president versus like, you know, somewhere else, you know, look at like New Zealand or like Scandinavian countries. I don’t even think it’s a conversation with them. It’s just a nature. It’s like, oh, yeah, we have a female president. So what? Yeah, I remembered also American friend commented on the election. Hillary being the losing party and he said we’re not ready for a female. I mean, we’re more ready for a black president than a female president. Yeah, that is what the statement was.

    Mo: But I’m more radical. I think we should have a non human president. AI president. No, a dog, a cat. And they have the intelligence to run.

    Greg: I mean, I don’t think they are less smart than our current president. They don’t fit to our society. Say something for women. Women doesn’t fit our society. We live today because after the Second World War, there were much more proportionally. So they decided they had more influence somewhere in European society, in consumerism. And there are some ideas about that.

    Mo: We’re great consumers of cat food.

    Greg: Stop speaking nonsense. You cannot put a dog in a… To be the devil’s advocate is, yeah, in art, if you use a cluster, because feminism is a cluster. A label. And so you enter a group. So people, you define yourself in a group. So you can be marketed. You can be targeted for buying to consume as this group. And also you are attacked. So it is helping also polarization. So then, yeah, I am. No, I’m not. And then it’s becoming very simple. There’s no, for me, there’s no feminism. There’s the category, because we need to simplify the discourse. But in fact, it’s way, way more complicated than that. And there could be, I think, 10,000 definitions of feminism. Like LGBTQ plus. You raise the gay pride. Then you become the target. And then you emit. And then your groups are created. And there’s antagonism. And it’s all going well in the social media area, the marketing area. And for Facebook to target you. And for politics also. So I would say it’s good. And there are some bad aspects to that. There’s the example of the writer. Yeah, Harry Potter writer.

    Taaye: JK Rowling. Oh, my God. JK Rowling. Profiting from it, but also. Backfired. There’s backfire. There are many. Yeah, but she’s almost canceled. Yeah. I don’t know what almost canceled means. But she canceled herself, basically.

    Greg: She had a video game published. And it’s not canceled at all.

    Anna: Yeah. I mean, I think that if you’re a member of a group, whether you’re a communist or a feminist or queer. Yeah. It can’t be your entire identity as an artist. Close file. Shut yourself completely off from all the greater interesting things that are happening in the art world. But, yeah, I do like having an identity as a feminist. And I think it has helped me personally in understanding things. And the United States can’t have a woman president yet. It is infuriating. I lived in Turkey when there was a female president there. And it was like Turkey can get a female president, but we can’t. And my mom, both my mother and my grandmother who passed away, they wanted to see a female president so badly before they died. And it didn’t happen. And I don’t know what’s going to happen in my lifetime. It’s just so, you know, it just is very, very difficult politically for a woman to succeed.

    Mo: I have a question. What if in, let’s say, another time, not this period, but another period, when feminist artists are backlashed as not trending anymore? As, you know, like in China, if you say you’re a feminist, you’re immediately cancelled for just labelling yourself. But let’s say it’s more like, you know, black life matters, white life matters. Suddenly feminists is in the box that is not welcoming anymore. Would you still label yourself? Are you a diehard?

    Anna: Yeah, I’m a diehard. I am. Because, you know, I’ve been, you know, I’m 60 and that’s part of my identity. It really is. And it affects the way I vote. Definitely. Yeah, I’m a diehard. And it isn’t that popular to be a feminist artist now in the United States. Most of the exhibitions and museum shows for artists are going to people of color or people who are queer. And it’s just like, OK, that’s the reality. It’s a correction. And women, you know, it’s OK. I respect that. And I want to see artists of color succeeding. But what I don’t like is when I go to a museum and I see a show of somebody who wasn’t ready. And it’s like, did they just get this show because of the color of their skin? Because these paintings are terrible. And this person is 25. You know, I don’t think that they were ready for a museum show. But, you know, there’s plenty of overlooked artists who, you know, that needed a show, you know, that were ignored. And I’m really happy to see what’s happening, mostly, in the change.

    Mo: So sorry about the white men. But, you know. I think about the white men, I think it’s also grass is greener on the other side. Because once I was told by a white man, his name is Max, he’s an artist from London. He told me that, oh, it must be so convenient to be you. And I look at myself, I’m like, me? And he was like, oh, you’re a woman and a woman of color. And you, if one day you enter that world, you know, it will be a blast because it’s all convenient for you. And for me, white men. And I was like, I have to fight hard. And so it’s just grass is greener on the other side. You know, you see, and you think life is easier on the other side. But maybe not. Yeah. Wow. Oh, my God. There’s also another. Nobody has this cookie cutter identities, but we are seeing more identities in the art.

    Esra: Because all the artists discovered it is profitable and easy way to identify even your art. So, yes, for sure. After Black Lives Matter is the paradigm shifter and we are seeing more people of colour in the art world. But we are seeing through their identity or like, I don’t think there were less queer artists in the past. But they are putting as a part of their art practice, which like I never seen a queer in Milano. They don’t mention they are queer. Like all that. I don’t know. Maybe the part of it like more you’re always saying that’s let’s take the revenge. So there’s a bit of revenge, a bit of market around this. I think there’s a bit of a trend. It’s a trendy thing to say and a trendy thing to do to be a queer. I mean, not saying that every single queer is using it as a trend because some of them are what they are, you know, but there’s definitely a trend.

    Mo: But isn’t it better than the before that I remembered I hear more commonly when artists says my art cannot be defined. I cannot write about my art because it cannot be in words. It can only be in paintings. You see, I mean, to at least tell the story of your life, queer or not, at least in a way, it is putting yourself out there.

    Esra: You think so. I’m more into like undefinable art because like I’m more interested in making process and the visual aspect of the art than based on only. And lately I’m seeing so many trash performance artists and they are getting such good positions and opportunities in the institutions in Europe. They are looking for performers and like it really most of the performance are just based on very silly idea. And obviously that art is there because of the identity of the artist. And it’s like, I don’t know, like all the gatekeeping phenomenon change that art world is like super politicized. And for the sake of art, I don’t know. I’m a little I’m not concerned. I don’t care. But like personally, the way I enjoy art is like that something is made. Quality.

    Taaye: Yeah, I think I think what Esra is saying is quite aligned with what my personal experience. I think there’s a fine line between the first couple of people who use the label to push for things versus the whatever quantity of numbers of artists that come after that, that use that label just for the sake of using the label. Because I’ve seen a lot of artists who say, oh, I’m so and so and so. And like what and what and what label just so that they can get into certain projects and certain funding and the government kind of encourage that like, oh, you have to be a woman of color or queer or indigenous in Canadian setting to be getting this funding, you know, whatever. So, in a way, the government or whatever institution is pushing for this narrative. And that got me into questioning at certain point is that how much are you actually just as an artist, how much are you pushing for certain things or how much are you just trying to push for your projects so that you can get the funding from certain institutions. And these institutions definitely have their own agenda to be. That’s why they’re pushing for these narratives, right. And, and it became a cycle because you’re like, oh, I want to, I need to get funding and that’s very normal, we all need to eat. Right. I need, I need this funding to do this project. And you look at the institution funding. Oh, they want this and this and this topic. Oh, let me do a project on about that. And then you help push the narrative and it became a cycle. So, you know, to get back to your point, that is what I say, you know, I agree, I see a lot of people are just doing certain things just because they fit into certain buckets.

    Esra: Yeah, the difference in Europe, it’s not more than governmental support that private, semi-private institutions, NGOs, lots of money that they have to distribute and they prioritise more like public programmable, talkable, eventable arts. So obviously a silly performance about how to be invisible in the city is just like, I, I don’t know, maybe I appreciate labour in arts, like I want to see a bit of work, like hours of work put in to art and I’m a bit tired of this super event based art world. But I’m in such a weird edge of my personal identity because the only way I could go through in the art world is like intellectualise, use more intellectualising my work that they could acknowledge my skills in the arts because I didn’t do art school. But the contrary, I really appreciate only the visual labour and I just don’t feel like to write a lot. So it’s, it’s very difficult to, to like, yeah, finding a path for me in the career. I’m very pessimistic in these days, even as an architect, I like the new AI features. I don’t know if next 10 years I will have a job. The architects, they don’t need to work. If you have like an architectural licence, you don’t even need to go to the office, you sell the licence to a company who doesn’t have this, let’s say, you know, kind of, Yeah, if you have a name. No, no, you sell the license. If the building collapses, you go to jail. But sell this licence to people that, that you get paid. It’s almost like an asset. Yeah, like pharmacists. I don’t know if it’s a practice in USA and Canada. Like they sell, even my aunt is an architect and she’s a specialist of security and that’s another task that you sign and she’s renting her diploma. Occasionally, she goes and checks. And it’s a very common practice. But, yeah, in Italy, there isn’t yet this kind of work because, like, everybody would perfectly avoid all the responsibilities and then truly only architect would go to jail. So I don’t think anyone would take that risk. And it’s very possible that there is a fire in the building.

    Anna: Are you going to see the new Francis Ford Coppola film is about architecture, right? I think it’s called Megalopolis or something like that. It sounds really interesting, and it sounds very idealistic about what architecture can do. But I’m interested to see it. But I feel sad, Esra, that you feel so down about your career. And personally, I think if you are a creative, you can’t stop yourself and you’ll have to make pivots. You’ll find another way. You will find another way. And right now you may feel so frustrated with what’s happening, but something will come along that will offer you opportunity to do a different kind of creativity if this one is not going to be what fulfills you. I know you still have to eat, but I hope that you don’t give up. Yeah, that’s so true. If you have this creative urge, you don’t give up. But you also need to have some success friendly art. And that’s so difficult to understand when you are living in.

    Esra: Yeah, without lacking of education already limits me in terms of technique and materiality, because like, I don’t know if I’m a digital artist and it’s hard to find the market for that while I’m going trying for the open cause of the institutional art world. Yeah. So it’s hard and AI is like, even in Italy, in the States already, but in Italy, tech companies are start shrinking. Actually who produced AI, they are the first ones are losing their jobs. My boyfriend’s sister is a headhunter. And she was giving me lots of insights about how AI replacing data analysis, basically. Yeah. Trying to build another career while I have a full time job was difficult. Like now I’m even not sure how long I will have this full time job. The good thing is like it is still architecture is about physical labor practice. So probably it won’t arrive immediately to us, especially in Italy. Like there’s so much human considerations. But in general, I’m very worried about the world.

    Greg: Yeah. And if I may, I know I defend a bit this point of view because I’m a bit negative. People tell I am also, but this is negative thinking that doesn’t mean not positive in action. And today, I think it’s very difficult. It’s not like the 80s or the 90s or even the 2000s. The society was progressing, the economy was progressing. And today, we have to be blind not to see that there are scientific studies that tells that it’s going to be worse over the next 10 years. And especially in Europe. And to make a metaphor of AI. So before in Paris, there was a problem of let’s say AI is an assistant like a machine that is carrying you from A to B. And before these machines or these slaves, because machine is the same, is working as a slave. And it takes energy, and it assists you to do something. And in Paris, there were like horses. So the coaches with horses, the cars pulled by horses and the horses, they were eating wheat. They were eating the same food as the human. And it became a problem, because then there was an energy problem. Like we’re expanding the economy, but then the horses are eating our bread, and then we cannot eat. And then the poor, they couldn’t eat because the rich, they had more and more horses. And then the people carrying by themselves from A to B were replaced by horses. Horses were replaced by cars. It’s just simple. And today, what is happening, when there was the transition to fossil fuel, the horses disappeared. And then we had a lot of wheat suddenly. And there was less shit on the floor. Because that was a sign of a problem, contamination with horse shit. And so then we had a lot of fuel. And from 2008, with the peak oil, we are reaching now the peak of fossil fuel. And there are some studies like in the next 10 years, no, not next 10 years, in 2030, there will be 8% less consumption of fossil fuel in Europe. Not in the US, not in Europe. 80? Sorry? 80 or 8? 8%. No, not 80. There won’t be enough transition. So that means we’ll use less energy. And then the AI system, they will be replacing us with less energy. So people will lose jobs. So the idea is, in Paris, when there was the transition, is you have to adapt and you take your horse. If you have a horse, you transition to the economy. And today is the same thing with AI. You adapt and you try to keep your expertise, to have a name, like a label or a name, a brand or something, and then learn how to use the system for your expertise. And because it’s very negative, what is coming up in the next years. And if you are not realistic, and if you have no problem sleeping, then maybe you won’t act, you won’t, the stress is because the society is difficult. And because you have to find solutions. And I’m a bit like that. I’m not telling it’s true or the right solution, but I’m totally understanding.

    Esra: Yes, beyond the discussion of being mayor, technophobic or not, this is something else. Like, because the mental work is replacing in the first time in the history, like this is so, to me, so uncomparable of any of the technological developments before. Yes, people invented satellites. Like, yeah, this is just an invention kind of argument is really not convincing me. The only thing would relax me is governmental limitations and laws around like how to use it, like to see. I trust European Parliament a little in that sense.

    Greg: You are positive.

    Esra: Yeah, maybe they will, because they are also foreseeing that maybe, because like people don’t understand that some jobs will be disappear, like in the revolution of industrial revolution. Some people, some jobs get lost, like lamp openers in the streets before electricity. There was a job, and after electricity, they weren’t necessary anymore, but they found other jobs. So, yes, that transition is normal, but like not having a job doesn’t mean 100% extinct from the world, like doctors, lawyers, architects. They, of course, like 10-15% of architects will be needed to use, like to provide the work with the client, the meetings and how to use AI, but most of the labor, like mental labor is already replaceable. We are not doing it thanks to boomers. So, like for sure, European Parliament is foreseeing that and maybe there will be like in Europe, there is limited use of AI in some sector or like, I don’t know, it may be more as more insights, like, is it possible to abolish such GPT technologies from the country?

    Mo: I have another theory. I have another theory related with art. And I think there will be, currently I don’t think there are studies, but let me know if there are. I’m very interested. I wish I had this choice to investigate further in this for my study, but I’m already finishing. So hopefully someone else will take it. I believe, okay, let’s just put it like very binary. There will be two kind of artists, the artists who can paint human anatomy and the one who can’t. Let’s just pick a pen, you know, going to art school test. You draw the face like the face, you can or you cannot. It will be much, there will be this type of, I wouldn’t say test or consideration, but I think the perception of how artists use technology and how they were perceived when using technology is totally divided by the fact they can or cannot. For example, he can. He can paint like a picture. So when we went around to the art fairs to people and they say, oh, what do you do? We make an Instagram with some quotations and portrait painting. And they say, oh, do you use AI? Is the AI painted? And I say, well, look at this picture. Before AI existed five years ago, we were painting the same. And they’re like, okay, so you’re a real artist. You see, like this reaction of validation or doubt is based on your physical ability. This will be like, you know, like JK Rowling used to say, woman who menstruates and a woman who does not menstruate. Right? So, but I would say no, because my mom does not menstruate, but she has me. So, I mean, that will be a little star and a little bracket explanation, but I think that will be the cut.

    Esra: I don’t know, but when it comes to art, it’s not just pure drawing skills. There’s composition, taste. I’m very interested in politics of taste, like finding, still there’s marketing skills and like there are artists who are able to change the definition of skills. They weren’t necessarily skillful, but they find the way through. So, I mean, it’s a way of thinking.

    Anna: Art making is a way of thinking. It’s not necessarily your skills. If someone is in a wheelchair, is a paraplegic, are they not allowed to be an artist? You know, they can’t use their arms. Well, if they cannot move their limbs, they can be skilled but difficult to move. It’s a way of thinking, you know, but like getting back to pessimism, my partner also, he’s very pessimistic. And I sometimes think, well, I have to be optimistic because I had kids. I thought I was hopeful enough to have children and I can’t give up because I want my two boys to, you know, thrive in a world. It’s going to be a different world. Definitely.

    Esra: Yeah, that’s why I will never have children.

    Taaye: Same, same, same. I would say, you know, as a marketeer, I was taught that if you have to ask one question to a client about the feedback of the product, you ask, you know, would you recommend it to your family and friends? And basically, would you recommend the world and life experience to anyone? And if you do recommend, you reproduce, right? You recommend. Yeah, but there’s also future predictions involved. Like, I reckon, like, it’s not just based on your experience. You don’t know the next 30 years. It’s so hard to.

    Mo: If you rate your experience in life, 0 to 10, how much do you give? I think I think I cannot predict the future, but then I can I can see the experience from the past, and I have met different people from different tiers of family. I met people who have who came from really wealthy family, who came from okay wealthy family, who came from not so wealthy family and, you know, very poor family. And I do see the difference, like, in terms of life aptitude. It’s a hard statement. That is a popular statement in mainland China today is they see that social mobility is closing and they couldn’t they couldn’t go through to another level and their children will live every day worse than. And life there is more difficult. Yeah, it’s very competitive.

    Anna: Yeah, it’s very hard. But all this affects like the type of work that you want to do as an artist. So, in a month, I’m going up to see a friend. She’s a really amazing environmental artist ( ), and she and her husband have decided the what the way forward is to make a farm. And so they, they bought two acres of farmland, and they’re just like that is her art. She’s a farmer now. And so, and she’s working to, you know, figure out how to be creative about it and maybe, you know, figure out her art practice, but right now, they’re learning how to repair the soil, and, you know, and we talk all the time. She and I about like are what what we’re starting to give up more and more like more and more. I am not going to fly anymore. And I feel like if I have to if there’s something that’s really important but so I’m going to drive all the way to see her for take three days in my electric car to go there, but, but I’m trying. I feel so badly when people are so pessimistic and they then maybe they can’t work anymore maybe they can’t be artists anymore, because they’re so like beat down do you guys feel that way or you can still be creative.

    Taaye: This is going to be short, I saw an image, I mean, I mean, internet meme recently meme is always the best. So there’s two artists, and they’re both Japanese, I don’t know if you guys know them. One guy is how Miyazaki, the creator of total spirit away. And then the other guy is a very famous manga artist in Japan, who is very famous for creating horror manga like really really like terrible things. But then when you see his, his interview he’s always wearing like a big ribbon on his head. He’s I always share about life is so good, but he created the most horrible. He’s like I hate work, work is so bad. Like, so, you know, like, even though if you’re pessimistic in personality, you know, you might be like, I owe me a ducky right. Yeah, Miyazaki in the last interview because he didn’t, and himself, his team didn’t show up in Oscar, and gave explanation that he’s in his list he doesn’t believe anything anymore I think he’s also at something I don’t think he needs any Oscar.

    Esra: It’s true, sometimes like it doesn’t reflect in your practice and the way you practice, how do you feel about the future but reflecting on another farmer friend, I think people who engage more with the nature are more resilient, like in a psychological level, because I always hate nature. Because I grew up close and my parents are nature enthusiasts and I, since I’m a child I was always into urban area I’m an urban girly like I like cinemas cafes in Italy, Italian historic centers are the best for me because there’s city and civilization and I feel so safe. And there’s a psychological explanation, looking at the landscape bothers me. And apparently it’s a thing some people just dislike not seeing further horizon, but even me when I feel the most burnout. I miss a bit of nature, I think it’s a bit human about being human, like, if you see that you can survive in nature, probably there’s less future anxiety because you notice that you don’t need that much to live and you have a decent life standards probably you could do but when you are so much involved. Because probably me and Greg are the most like all day long with double screen and then for like all your life is about technology so technological changes will you feel the more probably more than the rest of the season. I’m so replaceable Oh my god like what am I gonna do kind of anxiety maybe it’s not even that real urgent to feel but I decided also to be in touch with nature more to understand to teach myself. That’s not all about like online connection. So, don’t worry, I’m not really working. I want to believe also human.

    Greg: Every idea has a different drive. People are taking from the mud. People are taking from the horizon. For me, my drive is really bad. It’s really anger. Like when something is not just, I really want to, to do something against it.

    Mo: Yeah, Greg is that rebel. When I was a professor in my university in Sydney I remembered he’s a word winning screenwriter and he said, what drives me is like anger and I remember that the shock at 23 years old when I heard that it’s like, Oh, I’m good. What is that? And then he said once he was in the garden with his kid, and there was another guy who was like pushing his kid or another kid I don’t know pushing someone in the, in the swing, and he goes like very angry. I was like, Oh my god like scandalous, I’m going to go and airdrop and see what happens and he was like very evil figure, but then in fact he had a Bluetooth headphone just talking to a business you know like they like, No, like he said his perception of the world is when there’s some suspicious things, he took it negatively first, he thought something’s wrong and he was curious about what is wrong and he write about crimes. So that was what he did. But the thing is that you have to use the anger right. Like, I think he did. He did to drive him to write about crimes to look for justice. That makes sense. It’s harder in art, how you use anger.

    Greg: And to come back to feminism, there’s a drive of anger, no, about it. Revenge. No, this is not fair, and no.

    Taaye: Yeah, you know, you know, it’s interesting because there’s two points I want to mention. The first point is that recently. So this is my very elementary understanding so correct me if I’m wrong. Okay, just putting the disclaimer. So, I, the way I understand is that feminism is a bit toned on or cancel recently is because some of the core philosophy, or some of the core idea about it is crashing with the queer, or the, the, you know, the trending philosophy of the society right now. So that’s point number one. So point number two, I want to mention is that like, I watched a YouTube video recently which is not a good opening of conversation but anyway. I watched a YouTube video recently about this person is interpreting the witch hunt in America in the 1800s in Massachusetts and in, in Salem’s. And he was saying that the real reason, the real reason, actually in Europe in Europe an,d the witch hunt in Europe. And he was saying that the real reasons for this witch hunt was actually because in Europe, there’s black death, you know, so half of the population was gone. And because half the population was gone. There was actually a rise of female power, like, women’s are allowed to go into the city to work as labor and as craftsmen versus these jobs are more like used to be a men’s job. So because there was a rise of female power, and back in back before the witch hunt. There was a drop of popular, you know birth weight, similar to what we have right now. So because of that, the government or the power at that time was like shoot, we need more babies, like, we got it, we got to have more babies. That’s why they kickstarted basically kickstarted the witch hunt, so that they can, you know, lower female power again and then rise the birth population again. So I thought that was very, very interesting because I never thought about the witch hunt that way. Right, like we always told that the witch hunt was more like a religious event that you know that happened in the past. But if you interpret it this way it’s like oh my god all of a sudden, you know, it’s the problem is very recurrent about female, like the problem about female power, and how much female power has in society is very very. It’s very consistent throughout history. So that got me thinking, how much of this current trend of, you know, queer and, you know, this trend is, how much of it is about being queer, and how much of it is about putting down the other side. I don’t know if I make myself clear but. Yes,

    Mo: I have a question why Judeo Christian and Roman Catholic societies did not go like the Muslims with four wives, then you’re more effective in reproduction. I’m very practical.

    Anna: Yeah. The Mormons have have more than have. That’s true. Yeah, that’s why didn’t that become a dominant policy.

    Greg: It’s very complicated.

    Esra: But the one thing I don’t like about this, most of the historians, they are sometimes pretending there’s no epistemology differences that way. As humanity we think, and to do interpretation, like, hundreds years ago is like so difficult. And, like, I don’t think that there was like understanding of uprising female power, or they wouldn’t see in today’s societal understanding. And it doesn’t like trying to point out the why is not the best sometimes because the yes they, they could have done so many other things to solve this problems, if they need more babies, but they choose to make any more, like, doesn’t make more sense to me. Like, trying to find other justifications.

    Mo: But if someone tried to convince you to have children, what would this person need to do? Well, give me a million dollars.

    Taaye: Yeah, exactly. No, don’t need to convince me just don’t need to convince me just give me $5 million and now yeah I’ll have babies here.

    Esra: No, I would never have babies even if I knew endless human life would be discovered and the world would be an amazing place. I just personally don’t like taking on that many responsibilities, and I don’t like my body composition change that much I ag.ree. When I was a child I was thinking pregnant woman are eating their baby. I always have morphic we want to see. I don’t want to talk about like the body composition changing part because I also that’s part of the reasons why I don’t want to have babies either. But, um, you know, I’ve seen friends who have a lot of money. And then when they have like about the responsibility part. I’ve seen friends of money and when they have money is like you know they’re able to take off the responsibility a little easier because they were able to hire helpers, you know, not saying that they’re completely not taking care of the kids but definitely not to some other level of my other friends who have who have less fortune right. So, I felt like, yes, we do need money to live, and money can solve a lot of problems.

    Anna: Yeah, that’s true. I think I had children, because my hormones told me to have children, you know, I just had. I never thought about having kids I didn’t plan to be a mother and then like kicked in age 28 I’m like, baby, baby, baby, I was like something else took over my mind. And then, you know, I had two kids and it turned off. I’m like, that’s it. I’m done. Done. Now, like I have no no hormones left t,he hormones are so powerful in my body. But I do think sometimes like I would never tell either my kids to have kids but I’m like, Oh, when I see a baby I just like, again, want to have a baby around so I think it’s something inside of me that’s controlling my brain to have. That’s what my mom said to. She said to me like, Oh, I want to have grandchildren. I’m like, well, you’re jumping like a huge step. But, and I want to ask how much do you think is hormone versus how much do you think is unconscious mind affected by your environment, like maybe everyone around you were having babies, and you would. That is not what happened because most of my girlfriends did not choose not to have children, like of the girls that I grew up with when I from when I was very little. I’m one of the only ones who had children. So yeah, I think it was really strongly hormones in my brain. Yeah, I mean, it helped me to choose the man, I chose the wrong man for me, but he was a good father, it was like, find a man to be good. You know, good gene pool good, you know, and then after a while it’s like, Okay, you’re wrong for me. And then I chose a man who, you know, my, my partner who is really my life partner, he was never going to have kids, never, you know, he hates babies, and he’s like, never had children. So now he’s got one to reproduce with one to live with.

    GregBot replied 1 month, 1 week ago 1 Member · 0 Replies
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